Shosuro Toson

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Shosuro Toson

Post  Sleep on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:37 pm



Okay, I know he's from a couple of days ago... but there is a HUGE argument going on at the AEG forums about this guy.

Apparently the Scorpion don't like him and think he wont see any play. Apparently sneak attack PRINTED ON A DUDE as well as the ability to remove the biggest threat from your opponents provinces isn't good enough for them. He has so much synergy with their current decks. Is he the best 9g personality ever printed? no. But is he solid and not worth complaining about? Of course.

I don't even think Kenji got this much complaining.

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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Kakita Hideo on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:49 pm

That's because everyone knew that Kenji was terrible lol. If Scorpion get a dedicated Ninja SH then he would work. I do wish he had 5F as that's what ninjas need is 1 more personality at 5F to backup Kerei and the unaligned ninja. After the reset button is when people will appreciate him.
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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Moto Damasko on Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:52 pm

So wait... the "I see your people and I can get rid of them with this guy automatically" isn't a dedicated strategy?! it's cheating?!


Last edited by Moto Damasko on Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  valentine on Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:32 am

I use kenji :confused:. And I'm certain toson will see play in competent ninja decks.
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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Kakita Hideo on Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:33 am

valentine wrote:I use kenji :confused:. And I'm certain toson will see play in competent ninja decks.

You do but how many others? Her GC was too high for Naked Lion early and she works in your deck because you play the big unique gold scheme. She's not terrible just doesn't fit their themes particularly well. Terrible is reserved for cards like Doji Kusari :geek:
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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Rain on Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:24 pm

If I play Scorpion Ninja early next arc, I am sure Toson has a guaranteed slot there. Right now, I don't know that I have anything to cut for him that I wouldn't prefer seeing. Truth is - having a dynasty deck where I like everything - not a terrible way to be.

The 'problem' I think that leads to all the arguing is that he is so close to being an amazing personality.

First - you have to be able to reliably hit a personality to get the printed naval to work, which only works out of HMD. Perceived value and actual value can be argued here but at the end of the day, every Scorpion ninja I've seen making the cut this year is running Fortress for the greater utility and PS. (Not to mention that Ninja is just fate dependent nine out of ten times you sit down).

Second - it is printed naval, not printed sneak attack. If his ability read "You may take the first action, which must be performed by a ninja" then yeah - that would be astounding. But when it must be performed by someone who has no active action then its much less dazzling. If it could even be performed by Toson or one of his followers, to guarantee there is anything behind it, I'd be happy. If my card draw engine isn't working out right, he may just be a blank (or I see three or four followers in a row) which brings us to...

Third - it is either built around you using Sly Deceiver in an already tight fate side or depleting a card every battle. Since it requires a card to be useful, giving it Strike's card draw on success would similarly silence most complaints.

Fourth - and this is no fault of the card but, I'm already running seven cards that can remove a card from a province. As often as not, I am going to have one of those in my hand (or in play) when I see one of two or three cards my opponent flips a card that I absolutely, under no circumstances, want out. Only one of which I can utilize when it isn't my turn. Kuon keeps getting used as an example here - but lets look at that example a little more rationally. Crab player sees Kuon but doesn't put him into play on his turn - chances are we are turn one, maybe turn two. My chances of having a 9G personality out who is less useful to me than an 8G personality, and be able to attack with what will likely be an opposed battle against a higher force opponent given the pacing of first turns are slim (pretty much - if I have Shuriken and Smoke - maybe some other move home to use as the navaled action). Once we hit turn three, four, unless the opponent is already gold screwed, he's just going to put out his good personality in his turn. Unless its face down and we'll go back to point 1 for that.

He's a looked forward to personality - so people were hoping he'd be better. I'm not aghast at him like some people, but end of arc, I'm just not that interested. Change any single one of the problems I mentioned and he's great. Give me another 5F ninja and I'd probably play him, whatever he said. Something else in BtD may also appear to make him more potent. But again - it is the first dual bugged set, some of the expectations change. Once many of the toys I'm relying on are gone next arc - he'll be reevaluated certainly.

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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Moto Damasko on Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:27 pm

... Rain... come on man. Your gripe is that he has to perform the action? Which costs a card?


This guy's purpose, his sole purpose, is to swing at a province... remove A BODY that you just looked at with the cheat dojo of pwned, and proceed to wreck face. Silent rot, hasty exit, walk in shadows, or shadow plays are all viable actions for this bad-ass to take.

Maybe you don't understand the power here... You play a ninja deck that emphasizes starving your opponents personalities, I'm talking running ninja shugenja so that you can play subversive, running the bayushi guidance and popping it on a body, looking at provinces and removing problems, all of which are huge actions.

If for even 1 turn, you starve a person of bodies or gold when they need it and take a province on their next turn, THE GAME IS 90% CHANCE, OVER. Again, its cheating, its CHEATING, its CHEATING legally.
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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Rain on Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:38 pm

Moto Damasko wrote:... Rain... come on man. Your gripe is that he has to perform the action? Which costs a card?


This guy's purpose, his sole purpose, is to swing at a province... remove A BODY that you just looked at with the cheat dojo of pwned, and proceed to wreck face. Silent rot, hasty exit, walk in shadows, or shadow plays are all viable actions for this bad-ass to take.

Strictly speaking, I'm providing the stack of problems when taken together make most Ninja players uninterested.

The 'cheat dojo of pwned' which no one is making ninja decks out of and doing well with?

Silent rot - which is reliant on your opponent having assigned a poisoned personality against a ninja who will be sneak attacking much of the time? (If my opponent is reliably doing this - I'm frankly not that worried about what cards I'm playing, I think I've got it handled).

Hasty Exit - which is pretty much completely the opposite of wrecking face - and he couldn't use anyway as it isn't performed?

Walk in Shadows - to move himself into the battlefield again? Only of course he can't because again, that doesn't have a performing ninja.

Shadow Play - Is a good option if I'm playing against Crab Heroes, DGC Followers or a handful of others but otherwise may as well be blank. (The +2F action isn't performed and even if it was, a force pump as my first action is just telegraphing I have nothing useful in my hand otherwise).

And yeah - having to use a card every time does make a difference - I'd say 90% of my Strike from Shadows in my ninja decks resolve a printed ability (and as often as not earn me a card instead).

Maybe you don't understand the power here... You play a ninja deck that emphasizes starving your opponents personalities, I'm talking running ninja shugenja so that you can play subversive, running the bayushi guidance and popping it on a body, looking at provinces and removing problems, all of which are huge actions.

If for even 1 turn, you starve a person of bodies or gold when they need it and take a province on their next turn, THE GAME IS 90% CHANCE, OVER. Again, its cheating, its CHEATING, its CHEATING legally.

So if I'm running ninja shugenja and Subversive, I now have 10 cards available to deny my opponent a card I don't want them to have in my deck - all of which have less risk than tossing a 9G personality into a battle to do it. If I'm denying them gold he doesn't sneak and then gets a big bullseye on his forehead thats not too hard to hit at 4F.

So lets say I completely flush his provinces of personalities with those various actions - how bad is his deck construction that he doesn't see at least one more the next turn with 3 or 4 provinces? And since I'm already playing second, at best I've evened tempo out, I haven't swung ahead. If I'm having to use him and a move home, or using other ninjas and a Black Hearts, then I'm not taking provinces on the turn I deny them. Frankly if I want to deny my opponent an important card - I'd much rather do it by simply taking the province the old fashioned way (well.. the sleazy ninja old fashioned way at least).

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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Sleep on Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:53 pm

Rain wrote:So if I'm running ninja shugenja and Subversive, I now have 10 cards available to deny my opponent a card I don't want them to have in my deck - all of which have less risk than tossing a 9G personality into a battle to do it. If I'm denying them gold he doesn't sneak and then gets a big bullseye on his forehead thats not too hard to hit at 4F.

So lets say I completely flush his provinces of personalities with those various actions - how bad is his deck construction that he doesn't see at least one more the next turn with 3 or 4 provinces? And since I'm already playing second, at best I've evened tempo out, I haven't swung ahead. If I'm having to use him and a move home, or using other ninjas and a Black Hearts, then I'm not taking provinces on the turn I deny them. Frankly if I want to deny my opponent an important card - I'd much rather do it by simply taking the province the old fashioned way (well.. the sleazy ninja old fashioned way at least).
I hear ya rain. I know what you are saying. The problem is that every ninja player that is complaining about this card is because they aren't running out of HMD. I know that there haven't been any impressive kotei performances out of it (although the top 8 ninja in Atlanta was running it IIRC), but we have a local player that has a very nasty deck out of the box that we have to playtest against. Honestly, it is by far the more imposing box IMHO. After turn three he just locks you down, completely controlling what you flip. Poor guy went 4-3 at the Tampa Kotei, and had one of those losses been a win he would have barely missed the cut (he had some really good tie breakers), and I attribute it more to his lack of playtesting than his player skill or the box he ran out of (he's really a pretty solid player).

Anyways, I don't think that Toson is the best 9g personality ever printed. I don't even think he's "great". But he isn't BAD, as many scorpion players are making him out to be. He fits very well into their theme and maybe he is the reason that the people playing out of the other box will start heading back over to HMD.

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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Moto Damasko on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:00 pm

So you are comparing, "cheating", by cherry-picking provinces, to some fate-side swapping (which is good I'll admit) and a bad battle action?

Okay, lets for one moment consider that you are playing a ninja deck that doesn't just use ninja actions (because lets face it there actually are other actions out there that aren't bad that are performed), like I don't know... kami unleashed? which showed up in the unicorn tacoma deck. Just a thought... Silent rot works to I hear... you could also run weapons, which very few ninja decks do for some reason (beyond me).

I'm just saying... ninja decks have dozen of different builds, and I honestly don't care what the "winners" are doing, because to be honest I have not seen a ninja "Winner" I've seen a few ninja decks show up, but I've also seen jank ass decks show up at the top. Ninja is viable, it does not mean that there is a "perfect" build for ninjas that rocks face.

Also, "cheating" is the difference between an honor runner seeing a powerful personality or not, cheating is the difference between kuon or chen or not. Cheating is the difference between key utility personalities that shut your deck down or not. Just saying.

Don't build a deck based on a word, build a deck that win's toson and cheating can win games, I've seen it.
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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Rain on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:07 pm

Sleep wrote:I hear ya rain. I know what you are saying. The problem is that every ninja player that is complaining about this card is because they aren't running out of HMD. I know that there haven't been any impressive kotei performances out of it (although the top 8 ninja in Atlanta was running it IIRC), but we have a local player that has a very nasty deck out of the box that we have to playtest against. Honestly, it is by far the more imposing box IMHO. After turn three he just locks you down, completely controlling what you flip. Poor guy went 4-3 at the Tampa Kotei, and had one of those losses been a win he would have barely missed the cut (he had some really good tie breakers), and I attribute it more to his lack of playtesting than his player skill or the box he ran out of (he's really a pretty solid player).

Anyways, I don't think that Toson is the best 9g personality ever printed. I don't even think he's "great". But he isn't BAD, as many scorpion players are making him out to be. He fits very well into their theme and maybe he is the reason that the people playing out of the other box will start heading back over to HMD.

And don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting the sky is falling over him. He is absolutely in the okay range for the deck I'm running in Austin this weekend. I'm more trying to elaborate on why people are disappointed in a fair way.

It isn't that I don't see the potential appeal of a lockdown style deck - I just personally prefer controlling my fate draw instead of what is at best a partial lockdown on the opponents flips. My problem with dynasty discard is the unknown. I'm introducing more randomness rather than minimizing it. And that doesn't suit my style of play.

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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Sleep on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:09 pm

I'm going to be honest damasko, you kinda lost me there. What's all this hullabaloo about cheating?

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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Moto Damasko on Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:14 pm

Sleep wrote:I'm going to be honest damasko, you kinda lost me there. What's all this hullabaloo about cheating?

I look at your provinces, and remove personalities before they get a chance to see play via ninja hullabaloo and tricks? I thought we already discussed that this is tantamount to cheating? Kinda like that game against panku where he got free second turn kuons because I was shooting my mouth off that he wasn't "That hard to kill".

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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Kakita Hideo on Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:22 pm

Ok i'm going to poke my head in here real quick. After seeing the FoBS and HMD versions of the deck i was disappointed with the Fortress decks. Ninjas, i believe, are a quirky deck that has to win with tricks rather then sheer force. Therefore, I believe that HMD gives you the best chance because it creates a snowball effect. It allows you the ability to "control" which personalities see to some level. I assume I lose the first province and swing in to prevent a good personality and allow my opponent to only buy 1-2 more personalities the following turn. You can then begin to attrition them out by limiting how many they buy vs how many you do. Again you begin to snowball and develop inevitability.

Arguement: They haven't one with HMD. Dragon hasn't won with LSC, is that a bad deck/SH? The problem with this arguement is the same that i have with Crane players (which i am btw). Scorpion players love to play dishonor as much as crane love honor. I think this philosophy for both clans stunts creativity and keeps some of their players from playing and brainstorming on Ninja decks. I feel confident that Ninja decks do have the tools to win a kotei and specifically under HMD. Fortress of the Blackened Sight just doesn't do enough for Ninjas or Kensai. I feel bad for the Scorpion player base because in comparison to other clan's SH you guys kind of got the short end of the stick. Hope this made sense. Is Toson great? No. I still have him as a above average personality that will see play in my Ninja deck.

Rating: 6.5-7/10
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Re: Shosuro Toson

Post  Gosh on Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:28 pm

I'll play him if only because I have the uncanny ability to run more Sneaks than kill actions and still not draw into any (it cost me 2 of my losses in Sarasota). That being said, he's overpriced for his statline/ability when compared to the non-unique ninja released in the same set http://dojooflies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50
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