Raido No Oni Errata

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Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Sleep on Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:22 pm

When we set out to create the Emperor Edition
environment, we wanted to make a fun, interesting environment that had
something for everyone. We feel that we have done a pretty good job of
reaching this goal. While attending a 16 man
tourney recently, there were 14 different strongholds being played.
Everyone seemed to have a great time. Everyone except a few, and those
few were the people who played against a Raido no Oni combo deck. This
deck works to try and get as many Raido no Onis into play on turn two,
taking anywhere from 2-4 provinces on the second turn, with reliability.
The deck is plenty manageable if you are ready for it. For example, I
personally went 4-0 against the deck, and in the Kolat Edition
tournaments we have had thus far, the deck has had little success. The
deck has also been tested very heavily by our play test teams around the
world and it has had a less than 50% win percentage against the field.
However, the deck creates a very Negative Play Experience, a term I
do not use lightly, often times never allowing your opponent to buy a
single personality. And even though the deck is not likely to ever win a
tournament, when it is unleashed on the unsuspecting or the casual
player, it is enough to make them possibly want to quit the game, which
is bad for everyone. In other words, it may not make the cut at a
tournament, and if it does it likely will not make it very far into the
elimination rounds, but it can be very devastating to the experience of
those at the middle and lower end tables. L5R has always been very
concerned with the experience all players have at a tournament, not just
those who make the elimination rounds.

So with this I have decided to issue erratum to Raido no Oni. Effective immediately, the following trait will be added to Raido.

Will only enter play from a province.

We hope this erratum will get Emperor back on course where we want it
to be, and we look forward to having the most successful arc in L5R’s
history!


I think it's totally warranted for the reasoning above.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Moto Damasko on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:31 pm

Sleep wrote:
When we set out to create the Emperor Edition
environment, we wanted to make a fun, interesting environment that had
something for everyone. We feel that we have done a pretty good job of
reaching this goal. While attending a 16 man
tourney recently, there were 14 different strongholds being played.
Everyone seemed to have a great time. Everyone except a few, and those
few were the people who played against a Raido no Oni combo deck. This
deck works to try and get as many Raido no Onis into play on turn two,
taking anywhere from 2-4 provinces on the second turn, with reliability.
The deck is plenty manageable if you are ready for it. For example, I
personally went 4-0 against the deck, and in the Kolat Edition
tournaments we have had thus far, the deck has had little success. The
deck has also been tested very heavily by our play test teams around the
world and it has had a less than 50% win percentage against the field.
However, the deck creates a very Negative Play Experience, a term I
do not use lightly, often times never allowing your opponent to buy a
single personality. And even though the deck is not likely to ever win a
tournament, when it is unleashed on the unsuspecting or the casual
player, it is enough to make them possibly want to quit the game, which
is bad for everyone. In other words, it may not make the cut at a
tournament, and if it does it likely will not make it very far into the
elimination rounds, but it can be very devastating to the experience of
those at the middle and lower end tables. L5R has always been very
concerned with the experience all players have at a tournament, not just
those who make the elimination rounds.

So with this I have decided to issue erratum to Raido no Oni. Effective immediately, the following trait will be added to Raido.

Will only enter play from a province.

We hope this erratum will get Emperor back on course where we want it
to be, and we look forward to having the most successful arc in L5R’s
history!


I think it's totally warranted for the reasoning above.

Wut, province smashing via tutor isn't balanced?
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Sleep on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:37 pm

It's not really the tutoring that's unbalanced, it is the combination of the tutor + Amazing Feat, making free copies of a 10f oni on turn two. The deck was janky and not reliable at all, but when it fired, it was really stupid (in addition to going first most of the time). I agree that it's a huge NPE and it's a good errata.

For comparisons sake, this "combo" was much,much easier to pull off than the elusive turn 2 four province take mantis combo, which is incredibly unlikely to ever really happen, since the rest of the cards in the deck would have to be so sub-optimal.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Kakita Hideo on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:04 am

Why for you hate crane DT?
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Moto Damasko on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:32 am

Kakita Hideo wrote:Why for you hate crane DT?

LessQQ MoarPewPew?
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Hida Hayabusa on Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:38 pm

The fun thing about errata in L5r is the reasons DT gives for nerfing the specific card. Some months ago, they said some weird Storyline issues made them ban Kali'ma Guidance (part of the negativity of the deck back then was Raido as well), and now they errata Raido when the obvious suspect is "I give you my name".

Anyway, the deck was a joke anyway. However the one thing that comes out of the errata list so far, is that the vast majority of the cards banned (lately) are things that are free or copy stuff. So they can just never design such cards.

Let's hope that they are going to do something with the Library of Rebith, because Kojiro+Tsunami is surely a NPE for most of the players (although I am sure that a DT member will certainly go 4-0 against such decks in a casual tourney afro )

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Sleep on Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:48 pm

Hida Hayabusa wrote:
Let's hope that they are going to do something with the Library of Rebith, because Kojiro+Tsunami is surely a NPE for most of the players (although I am sure that a DT member will certainly go 4-0 against such decks in a casual tourney afro )

The fact that you have to be opposed to do the in-battle spell attach now balances that. Granted, 4 free gold for an attachment is INCREDIBLY good, but it's only really going to matter in the cavalry phoenix decks ONE time. Because most military matchups are decided by one key decisive opposed battle. Compare that with the Spider Monksai stronghold which essentially produces 4 free gold for an attachment EVERY turn regardless of opposed battles.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Hida Hayabusa on Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:03 pm

To be honest, the Kojiro spell military is the best military that I've played against. A box that allows you to go first, pays for your attachments and a 5/5 shuggie that is cavalry and Naval is not that fun to face. Of course there are ways around it, like running the full Effortless,move home negation and Entrenched package in your fate. Although the point you are making is valid, you have to see the grant picture about cavalry and decisive battles. Creating a 11/5 cavalry naval unit with one of the best attachments available (and if you don't have Tsunami, you can always get the same mileage out of Channeling) out of a self straightening stronghold, reminds me a bit of the Chagatron era. He was unique and banned after giving the Unicorns a number of important wins.

I would hate if this happened again, and it seems that a Kojiro+big spell start, is as brutal as a Chagatron one.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Sleep on Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:49 pm

Hida Hayabusa wrote:I would hate if this happened again, and it seems that a Kojiro+big spell start, is as brutal as a Chagatron one.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Chags was big and bad 9f all by himself for 13 gold, NEGATED the first bowing every phase (the phoenix box can only straighten in battle), had cavalry, and sent home two people who opposed him, destroying one if one of the movements was negated.

Kojiro is 8g, tsunami is 8g, so 16g for 11f. Requires you to use your stronghold to straighten if he gets bowed. Has no battle action if the opponent destroys the attachment (very easy to do).

I think comparing the two makes it clear why one was banned, and the other is strong, but by no means overpowered. I'll face Library of Rebirth all day long with my Kitsu honor deck and laugh my way all the way to the top tables.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Hida Hayabusa on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:56 pm

Well, let's disagree, but let's try to get things straight. I think that you are over simplifying the whole comparison concept. I will get my thoughts down in a list, so it's better for me and everybody to follow the points.

1) Kojiro is non unique. Chagatron was. This means that maybe the Unicorn player wouldn't see Chagatai up to turn 3. The current phoenix player is impossible not to see a Kojiro by turn 2.
2) Tsunami or Channeling is 4 gold for people playing them. We can't just neglect that fact. Also it's not 8g+4g=12g. Kojiro costs 8 on one turn, Spell costs 4 on the other turn. That's better than paying 11g at once (less chance for gold screw).
3) Kojiro is a EE opening personality, unlike Chagatron who was not a base set starter champion.
4) Of course he is a blank personality, and certainly in a void, he has nothing to do with the Chuck Norris of L5r. But it's too much for kicking off EE. Mixing the two best traits in L5r in a 5C (almost unduelable and almost un-RoF-able) personality isn't the best way to welcome a new edition.

P.S: The fact that your Kitsu handles military well, has nothing to do with it. It's like saying that if you don't want to have a problem with Phoenix Spell military, play Kitsu Ancestor Gay runner. That's not how L5r works.

P.S2: I think that our current Kitsu lover has won all our tourneys lately. So yes, I know what you mean about Kitsu vs military.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Sleep on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:19 pm

Hida Hayabusa wrote:
2) Tsunami or Channeling is 4 gold for people playing them. We can't just neglect that fact. Also it's not 8g+4g=12g. Kojiro costs 8 on one turn, Spell costs 4 on the other turn. That's better than paying 11g at once (less chance for gold screw).

Hayabusa... the ability to attach a spell from your hand to your shugenja requires your shugenja to be opposed. Library of Rebirth only gives you 4g when attaching during the combat segment. Thus, for this combo to be relevant to cavalry AT ALL it is assumed you are paying full cost for the spell. Thus, Kojiro is only as good as any 10-11g Unicorn Personality that you spend 8g attaching a follower or weapon to.

The two turns that this combo is most effective (turns 3 and 4 when you swing in cavalry unopposed) are the two turns when you can't use library of rebirths ability to reduce the cost on the spell.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Hida Hayabusa on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:28 pm

True. It seems that I have been playing against too many Glories of the Shogun. Still, I can't get the 16g spent algorithm. One is paying 8g, and 8g later on (he won't need 16, but 8 split in two turns....that's one holding more).

By the way, I am not trying to say that Kojiro needs an errata. I am just saying that I don't want to see the Chagatron box of candies once again i.e. random clueless people winning due to one card. Of course, just to get things straight, Chagatron never received an errata, while he was out there...they just stopped him one month before he became bitter history, as far as I remember (and he was out for some years before).

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Kakita Hideo on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:38 pm

DT why you no nerf feenix shugenja?
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Hida Hayabusa on Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:05 pm

Apparently they are no artisans. And it's a known fact that DT hates art.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Umiushi Han-Dei on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:00 pm

Just out of curiosity what exactly is the Raido no Oni combo that they are so worried about? I figured it was boxable shugenja turn one followed by I give you my name to get one out, but I cannot think of a way to turn that into the two provinces turn two that DT mentions.
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Sleep on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:18 pm

Umiushi Han-Dei wrote:Just out of curiosity what exactly is the Raido no Oni combo that they are so worried about? I figured it was boxable shugenja turn one followed by I give you my name to get one out, but I cannot think of a way to turn that into the two provinces turn two that DT mentions.

There is a free artisan for crane, and they ran Amazing Feat. Amazing Feat would make a copy of the Raido No Oni

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Kakita Hideo on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:19 pm

Crane shugenja box. Turn 1 you could buy 2-4 peeps. Turn 2 you can IGYMN 1 or both. You then use Amazing Feat to make a copy of Raido no Oni. If you had another Amazing Feat and straighten texh do it again. Consiten enough (80%) turn 2 take 2 with a chance at all 4 with the nuts. I have a list if your really interested.
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Umiushi Han-Dei on Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:24 pm

I would be as a historical note, yeah.
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Kakita Hideo on Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:05 pm

Shinden Asahina

# Dynasty (40)

# Events (9)
3 All That Will Be Lost
1 Harsh Choices
1 Times of Strife
1 Wisdom Gained
1 The Onyx Championship
1 The Topaz Championship
1 Imperial Gift

# Celestials (1)
1 Jurojin's Blessing

# Regions (1)
1 The Second City

# Holdings (1)
1 Temples of Gisei Toshi

# Personalities (28)
3 Asahina Yasutora
3 Asahina Keigo
3 Asako Moeru
3 Chuda Niiro
2 Doji Rengetsu
3 Kakita Seishi
3 Kakita Yasunori
3 Raido no Oni
2 Suiteiru no Oni
3 Goju Oyoto

# Fate (40)

# Strategies (30)
1 A Game of Dice
2 A Yojimbo's Duty
3 Amazing Feat
3 Brawl
3 Caught in the Act
1 Creating Order
3 Face of Ninube
2 Paid Off
3 One Koku
3 The Courtesy of the Crane
3 Undetectable Enemy
3 Sundering Strike

# Items (2)
2 Pearl of Embers

# Spells (6)
3 I Give You My Name
3 Walking the Way

# Rings (2)
1 Ring of Air
1 Ring of the Void
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  panku on Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:22 pm

Kojiro is good, but hes not even close to game breaking.

Let me point out that any Unicorn Cavalry deck could do basically the exact same thing if they where to run Scourge of the Sea.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Hida Hayabusa on Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:39 pm

panku wrote:Kojiro is good, but hes not even close to game breaking.

Let me point out that any Unicorn Cavalry deck could do basically the exact same thing if they where to run Scourge of the Sea.

I can't see how you can compare those two. Could you elaborate a bit more?

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Umiushi Han-Dei on Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:21 pm

Scourge of the Seas is a huge cavalry follower that gives it's personality Naval.
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Hida Hayabusa on Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:28 pm

Yes I am aware. Still I miss the comparison, between Kojiro and a powerful spell, and a unicorn personality riding the fail snake.

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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Umiushi Han-Dei on Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:46 pm

As far as I'm aware that is the comparison.
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Re: Raido No Oni Errata

Post  Sleep on Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:02 pm

Hida Hayabusa wrote:Yes I am aware. Still I miss the comparison, between Kojiro and a powerful spell, and a unicorn personality riding the fail snake.

Kojiro plus Tsunami is a 10f unit for 16 total gold (spread out over two turns) that has cavalry, naval and a printed action to use that naval with.

A unicorn personality (lets say Moto Xiao XP) plus Scourge of the Seas is a 12f unit for 17 total gold (spread out over two turns) that has cavalry,naval and a printed action to use that naval with.

The comparison also works with several unicorn deathpriests with Tsunami itself. You don't get the Naval, but you still get easy-to-use province crushing force.

Iuchi Kota XP plus Tsunami is a an 11f unit for 15 gold (actually cheaper than Kojiro) that has cavalry and negates a movement at the battlefield.

Yupadi plus Tsunami is a 9f unit for 14 gold (cheaper than even Kota), is non-unique, AND if you have another spell or an open-action straighten, can give herself naval for the attack.

The point being, that Kojiro is strong yes, but not really any stronger than a lot of different options available, and definitely far from overpowered since unicorn has had the ability to do this stuff for years.

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