forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

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forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  HidaDowling on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:53 am

So i was on the oracle of the void looking at ivory legal cards and all the forgotten legacy cards are on there wtf? i thought FL was going to be axed when ivory edition hit?
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Gosh on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:45 pm

There are only a handful of Ivory legal cards: Colonial Harbor, Bamboo Harvester xp, Border Keep xp, A Game of Dice, Creating Order, and Entrenched Position.
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  HidaDowling on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:52 pm

Oh ok then that's not too bad. I love me some game of dice.
How do you feel about the scorpion previews gosh?
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Sleep on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:22 pm

The fact that Creating Order is legal for another arc completely ruins any enjoyment I may have gotten out of the arc.

It's not that it's "busted" or "strong"... it's that it sabotages whole core concepts of tempo and the way that the military vs military matchup is played. The winner of a military vs military game LARGELY decided by the player that drew into their copy of Creating Order.

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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Gosh on Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:13 pm

The Uniques are playable but nothing special; the Yojimbo is interesting but doesn't mater the vast majority of the time; the strategies are okay, and the Follower is good, but for a theme that needs all the help it can get right now.
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  HidaDowling on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:28 am

Yeah I don't think I'd play kameyoi exp over her base. At least not without the yasuki to straighten her.
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Gosh on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:29 pm

Nah she's still worth playing because her honor loss happens a half-turn before regular Kameyoi (it's an Open), and because you can never have enough on-board honor losses.
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Moto Damasko on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:13 pm

I don't have a problem with creating order, because its earned me as much as its earned them, I literally play my games assuming creating order is in every deck (including honor). Sometimes I take that gamble and lose sometimes I don't. I'm always bitter about it when it drops though Razz On both sides.
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Gosh on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:37 pm

I've never been a huge fan of the top-deck win, and that's exactly what Creating Order is.
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Sleep on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:45 pm

Gosh wrote:I've never been a huge fan of the top-deck win, and that's exactly what Creating Order is.

Exactly. It doesn't matter that it's "balanced" (it is), it's that it sabotages any element of strategy. If you are holding creating order and your opponent isn't, it is not difficult in the least to create a lose-lose situation for the opponent.

There is elegance and style to the tempo of the military vs military matchup. The ebb and flow of armies attacking, bowing out, and then scrambling to have enough defenders. Creating Order ruins all of that. It's too strong of an effect to be "hidden" in your hand. The fact that it is unique and that both players have a copy in their deck means it is balanced and not "broken", but it doesn't change the fact that it single handedly wins games for the person who does draw into it. Being able to attack all-in on a province leaving no defenders knowing that your two best units will be straightened for the response attack is incredibly strong. In CE there was a balance to it, you had to take a risk. The opponent then had the strategic decision of whether or not to defend or try to overwhelm your limited defenses on the response. A Perfect Moment is the only other card that I feel inherently "breaks" the game for me, and I feel it is much lesser of a problem due to the fact it can only be played out of one theme. Creating Order however is played in every deck. The IvE arc would do well without either card available.

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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Moto Damasko on Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:39 pm

I think your thinking about what makes creating order bad for the environment is wrong. What makes creating order powerful is not its tempo ability, it's the versatility if te action that lets it be played in any deck viably. What I mean by this, is another legal reaction this arc that does exactly what you feel is broken for tempo and works against ret in addition, its a card that military would hate to see as its 3x. What makes redoubled attack unplayable is exactly what makes a card like creating order broken. What makes creating order "Balanced" though is just as you said, that in an arc where everything is broken... and everyone can play it, who cares?

I feel this is bad environment design, for the same reason that I feel a lot of this arc is bad environment design, because creating order isn't an action limited to a few like "Do not turn your back" from last arc.

I guess what I am truly trying to say is that we can look at it in a nut-shell and say is that cards need to not only be created for their effects on themes, clans and meta, but also for their effect on the overall environment, FL was a set that set the tone for emperor, a broken set full of broken cards that have not left the decks they were printed for this entire arc. What cards could you say the same about from last arc? The environment is important and should be the first question about each card... "Why are we printing this card and how will it affect the environment". If the answer to that second question crosses the "threshold" for how you designed the environment at its inception, it needs to be rethought.

For me, a truly broken card for this arc was "Know no fear" because it made an environment that was truly void of interaction. It was probably thee worst offender of this entire arc for balance... and its funny because all they did, was take "hold" and take away everything that made it balanced (commander only). It is truly how you shape a theme and the environment that creates balance. I also am not a big fan of fans who believe in rock-paper-scissors balance, but that's just me. Also don't take my love for commanders as being the argument, I'm just saying that tools crafted for a particular style of game should not transcend borders without restrictions, otherwise you break the environment. (Imagine a military deck with full limited control, you don't, it exists, and existed in previous arcs from what I understand).
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  HidaDowling on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:28 am

Yeah I hate know no fear. It pretty much wrecks your game. Especially as a 3 of. I actually don't mind creating order, simply because if what you guys said. Everyone has it and you should expect everyone to have it.
I am glad that game of dice is dual bugged, love that card.
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Re: forgotten legacy Ivory Legal?

Post  Daigotsu Thrakhath on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:02 pm

I'm with Sleep, I would have been a lot happier to never see Creating Order again after this arc. Sadly, we have one more arc of that damn piece of cardboard being legal. >.< Guess I'll just have to suck it up.
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