[Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

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[Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Moto Damasko on Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:51 am

**WARNING: This may not be the exact text as no printed card was viewed, look to your heralds**

Destructive Priorities
Kata - Poitical
You have the ability.
"Political Reaction: Before you gain honor during your turn, bow your
performing Courtier: Negate the gain. Choose a player. He loses 2
honor."

Limited: Put this card into play. Discard all your other katas.

Was this really necessary?
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Pruto on Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:52 am

retarded

please tell me it isn't 4fv at least =/
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Moto Damasko on Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:55 am

Pruto wrote:retarded

please tell me it isn't 4fv at least =/

It's fv 1, but still... you put two of these in your deck and just play along.
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Kakita Hideo on Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:52 pm

If that's the exact text then its not over powered. If it's on either players turn then I can see some issues.
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  panku on Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:29 pm

Moto Damasko wrote:Was this really necessary?

I would say that it obviously is necessary, otherwise they wouldn't have printed it. Lets be realistic here, Dishonor has won what? 2-3 kotei this season? maybe 3-4 in all of celestial?

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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Moto Damasko on Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:33 pm

That's a damn piss poor argument. That's like saying "Lets make kensai overpowered" because no one has won or played the deck effectively. Most decks are lucky to have won 3-4 kotei's even breeder's record was similar to that before this season, more so crane slander is currently rocking face.

My comment is simply that it's another "recurring" tool that is putting a deck type that is already doing darn well way over the top. It's tantamount to printing a kata that unbows units as an open action for military, or a "Negate a political action" kata.
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  panku on Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:48 pm

You do realize that Dishonor is one of the 3 Primary win conditions right? When a primary win condition is obsolete for 9/10 of an arc, over 2 whole years, it should get good cards. Besides 1 good card does not make an entire Arc-type overpowered.

One of dishonor's biggest issues is consistency. It currently relies on a few unique personalities to get a stable clock going. This will remedy that.

After this set goes live Dishonor will be potent enough that you will have to meta against it, just like all the other primary win conditions. The days where you can just ignore dishonor are gone. Learn to live with it.

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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Moto Damasko on Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:06 pm

You do realize that the "dishonor" theme had low support early arc and only 1 clan even played in the area, if we count that 1 clan (until recently) having any in clan support worth mentioning, in the grand-pool of clans and themes, they make up less than 10% of the population of available clans and themes. Of course they are going to have lower level standings, and when we have people like bayushi McMasterChef complaining about ninja's, what do you expect? I think its pathetic that dishonor decks are only just receiving support (dragon/pheonix specifically) but on the flipside it's a win condition that hampers all decks by slowing down economy, that's worrisome because its an additional element of control in a control heavy deck.

The point again, is that its another recurring honor loss, where all dishonor running clans (mainly crane and scorpion) already have lots of tools for consistency. You want consistency? Run 2x tea ped and a counting house, run your standard layout for scorpion dishonor. I simply think that stacking yet another recurring 2 honor loss on top of decks that are already doing relatively well (especially for the already speedy and hard to mitigate crane slander) is a little much. PS if you aren't already meta'ing dishonor you lose to a good dishonor player... that's why oyo seido has been running around, that's why thriving light is still solid, that's why scorpion won last week and crane slander has been doing fine.

But what do I know... It's all about the kotei standings right?


Last edited by Moto Damasko on Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  panku on Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:16 pm

nm


Last edited by panku on Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : this is pointless)

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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Moto Damasko on Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:19 pm

panku wrote:Right now, in the current environment, most decks can run 0 dishonor meta and consistently beat scorpion dishonor decks.

Right now, in the current environment, you can run 0 dishonor meta and still consistently beat crane dishonor if your clan starts with a decent family honor.

The only reason Crane Dishonor variants are doing well right now is because the vast majority of decks still run 0 dishonor meta.

An environment of rock-paper-scissors... and everyone else is mushroom.

So dishonor/slander is scissors, and Military is rock, honor runner is paper, enlightenment is mushroom.

Paper beats rock
Scissors beat paper
Scissors also happen to beat rock, unless rock is breeder or ultra resilient/lion military,
In which case rock also beats paper, and would also beat scissors, but it didn't meta for scissors, because it meta'd for paper
So scissors beats paper, and avoids rock meta, and that is called balance.
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Sleep on Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:49 pm

Moto Damasko wrote:That's a damn piss poor argument.

Calm down. Stop being so confrontational. People are having a discussion, and you are taking it awfully personally.

You do realize that the "dishonor" theme had low support early arc and only 1 clan even played in the area, if we count that 1 clan (until recently) having any in clan support worth mentioning, in the grand-pool of clans and themes, they make up less than 10% of the population of available clans and themes.

It's not so much that dishonor had poor support, it's that other win conditions were much stronger. Also, I'm not sure if you know this or not, but scorpion are by far the most played faction. Way more than 10% of the total userbase. I mean, there are only 9 clans Damasko. I'd put scorpion closer to 20-30%.

Also, this is a fate card, not a dynasty card. As it is, nearly every single fate card a dishonor player runs makes you lose 1-2 honor. So, this card only gets better than the card that they had to take out to run it by the 2nd turn that they are able to use it. And even then, they have to bow a courtier EVERY turn, in a deck that already has to bow out most of it's personalities to perform it's actions. It's also negating their honor gains, which for Crane Slander, is a VERY bad thing, since they need their own honor gains to stay afloat. In addition, this is a kata, which means that it suffers the same drawbacks that all kata's do, in that if you see a 2nd one, it is worthless. And if your argument is that they only run 2, that means that this card will not have a meaningful impact on the game, because the opponent will only draw it about 60% of the time (2 cards out of 40 means one in 20 cards. The average deck sees like 12-13 fate cards a game).

Does it have potential to speed up the dishonor deck? Yes.

But to be quite honest, I would rather be facing a crane slander player who is keeping himself in blood-money range because of this card, and bowing an extra dude that now can't defend, than lets say Veiled Menace or Legendary fued, which directly punish me for attacking. And for that final turn that 2 honor loss would kill me and they traveling peddler into their 2nd version of this card, I am happy as can be because I just won the game.

--Edit-- also, there's a good chance that Crane Dishonor won't play this card because the 1 fv. If Gisei flips it it is a 0 honor loss. The risk of this happening is not worth the possible 4-6 honor the card MAY cause to your opponent over the course of the game.


Last edited by Sleep on Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Sleep on Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:51 pm

Moto Damasko wrote:
Scissors beat paper

Honor probably wins 90% of the matchups against dishonor.

More realistically, the way it has been going is:

Dishonor beats Breeder, Breeder beats Honor, and Honor beats Dishonor. <-- True rock paper scissors. Everything else gets destroyed by these three decks leading to the finals.

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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Moto Damasko on Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:04 pm

I don't get pissed over card discussion. I do get annoyed at being dismissed, most people do.

Let's just see how future cards see play when it happens. I'll just agree with velo's opinion on this in that both decks will see excessive use of this card.
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Kakita Hideo on Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:22 am

Sleep wrote:
Dishonor beats Breeder, Breeder beats Honor, and Honor beats Dishonor. <-- True rock paper scissors. Everything else gets destroyed by these three decks leading to the finals.

Honor shouldn't beat Dishonor unless honor can win via military. The reason Crane slander is winning is because it only has a few bad matchups (Lion and some Crab variants). Both those weaknesses suffer from the current meta as breeder has a great matchup vs those 2. The reason you are seeing the current crane vs spider finals-fest is that they help each other as they cover up each others weakness (along with bandwagonning). Crane honor was winning early this year because Crane Slander was not in its current form and now flooding the field
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Sleep on Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:28 am

When you say slander, do you mean honor/dishonor switch, or straight dishonor? Because I know that term has meant different things to different people.

Also, you have more experience with this than I do, but I was under the impression that the honor variant beats the dishonor variant 9/10 times because it CAN go military if necessary (since chances are likely it will have the favor) and even without military, I'm not sure how the other crane player pulls ahead. The Honor/Dishonor switch deck definitely beats honor, because it can keep the honor player around 25-30 and then honor out itself, but the switch deck has horrible matchups to a lot of military (hell I beat one with Flashy Steel at Sarasota, and embassy decks are all a bad matchup for that deck).

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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Kakita Hideo on Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:50 am

Slander is vague but I consider the current crane dishonor deck a dishonor/honor switch deck as an example. It should beat a dishonor deck 80% of the time and honor at about the same percentage. Currently, not all honor decks can go military as it can easily be out-forced and has a lack of battle actions.
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Moto Damasko on Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:49 am

Kakita Hideo wrote:Slander is vague but I consider the current crane dishonor deck a dishonor/honor switch deck as an example. It should beat a dishonor deck 80% of the time and honor at about the same percentage. Currently, not all honor decks can go military as it can easily be out-forced and has a lack of battle actions.

How do the personalities involved in the slander deck differ from the honor deck? Gisei is a give-me but what other differences are there?
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Kakita Hideo on Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:57 am

Moto Damasko wrote:How do the personalities involved in the slander deck differ from the honor deck? Gisei is a give-me but what other differences are there?

Slander runs Jutsushi, Yoshihara, Senta, Kazunori, Kokiden, nukada, and seimi. I should say they run a combination of these and a much different fate side. The goal is to dishonor military (excluding lion), dishonor other dishonor, honor out against honor runners, and outplay other slander decks.
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Moto Damasko on Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:29 pm

Kakita Hideo wrote:
Moto Damasko wrote:How do the personalities involved in the slander deck differ from the honor deck? Gisei is a give-me but what other differences are there?

Slander runs Jutsushi, Yoshihara, Senta, Kazunori, Kokiden, nukada, and seimi. I should say they run a combination of these and a much different fate side. The goal is to dishonor military (excluding lion), dishonor other dishonor, honor out against honor runners, and outplay other slander decks.

They utilize control and kill actions against military players? Do they run magistrate actions similar to the scorpion version? Gisei?
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Kakita Hideo on Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:36 pm

Some don't run any kill some run a lot of kill. All of them are varied but concentrated on the goal of getting you to -20 as fast as they can.
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Re: [Herald Preview] Destructive Priorities

Post  Sleep on Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:09 pm

Big thing for the deck is to get rid of gisei/nukada

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