"Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

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"Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Moto Damasko on Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:08 pm

http://www.strangeassembly.com/?p=564


I’ll just start with the headline – I think Breeder should be nerfed.
I thought that The Dead of Winter was finally going to shut it down. I
was wrong. It’s winning too many Kotei. It’s been winning things, in
various versions, since the arc started. Do we need all three CE
GenCons to be won by Fields of the Dead? Even when it isn’t winning,
it’s filling up the elimination rounds. It’s annoying to play against.
It deforms the environment with decks trying to meta against it, and it
is more than capable of still running over a deck that brings a full
meta package. For comparison, here are the decks in semi-recent years
that won a higher percentage of the Kotei in their time than Breeder has
so far this Kotei season:
Chagatai Unicorn
Warrens of the One Tribe Ratling
Khol Wall Unicorn
There are reasons not to do anything about Breeder. The list above
is bit of an unfair comparison, because, while those are the only decks
that out-performed Breeder in terms of win % over a Kotei season, those
decks were much, much more dominant than Breeder. If you banned or
errata-ed something out of Breeder right now, to take effect in 30 days,
it would only be around for two Kotei weekends before Before the Dawn
hit. And then Forgotten Legacy is coming in July, and (since AEG will
want it to sell) I’m guessing it will be legal for GenCon. That’s a big
possible environmental shift. Maybe nerfing Breeder will just unleash
some other deck.
Despite the above, I think that the tipping point for me to conclude
that Breeder should be nerfed because it is a terribly unfun deck to
play against and, so far as I can tell, not that fun to play with for
many players. And, to a lesser extent, because there is not a lot of
ability to meta for it that the Breeder deck can’t counter (for example,
every Breeder deck just packs a suite of Event-negation cards, so that
random chance of free Crossing wins goes down dramatically). When you
get down to brass tacks, the ultimate point of errata and/or bans is to
make the game more fun again. Breeder is not as dominant as some other
decks that have received errata/bans in the past, but it is both
environment deforming and unfun. Maybe changes in the upcoming
environment would fix it anyway – but maybe they wouldn’t. And by the
time we learned that they wouldn’t, it would be way too late, given that
the coming environments are going to consist of the last bit of Kotei
season and then the summer cons (things could be “fixed” later for
EuroChamps, but that’s about it). Better to swing the nerf bat than
risk having Breeder run around making tournaments unfun for the rest of
CE.
I do not propose a specific solution. But I do think that the nerf
bat should be swung and swung hard (I default to desiring hard swining
because, if there’s anything worse that not swining the bat when it’s
needed, it’s swinging it and still having the target deck out there
annoying people).
Feel free to tell me why I’m right or wrong here, or on the forums.
This is the second article I've seen like this today, the first being a post on the AEG forums.
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  panku on Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:51 pm

I feel no sympathy for the people losing to Breeder. The meta is out there and people choose to ignore it. A big part of being successful in any ccg is being able to read the environment and adapting to it.

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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Moto Damasko on Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:55 pm

I think the gripe has less to do with meta not being available (boxable/crossing/claw/justly) and more to do with the fact that the deck is extremely unfun to play with and against, and if you play with most military decks, breeder still easily crunches opponents.

Even if it is a pilot-based deck, those are the gripes I've seen.
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Justin on Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:13 pm

The fact that it's unfun is important, but it's not the number one issue to me. The bigger problem is that that running meta for it doesn't really help much (you still have to run it to avoid getting steamrolled, though.) In general, I see most good players running both events, a playset of Claw and Shell, and then perhaps some Burn the Village or Turn the Tide on top of it. And realistically? It's still not enough. All the meta for breeder only works during very narrow timing windows, (Events must hit late-game, Claw and Shell must hit early-game) and most breeder decks have the room in their fate deck to run the answers for all these cards.

You can throw in more cards beyond that, but then you're starting to get to the point where you're devoting close to 10% of your deck to beating one matchup out of thirty-six, perhaps catching a couple of honor decks on the side. (Forget about other clans running cheap-person military... Those decks have already been strangled out of existance by breeder meta.)
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  panku on Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:30 pm

Most military decks, especially big unit military also have the same problems with Control.

The only reason Crane Hasn't won 10+ Kotei this season is because Breeder exists.

The unfortunate reality is that big unit military has too many vulnerabilities to cover to consistently do well in the current environment.

ps: I love playing breeder Twisted Evil

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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Justin on Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:47 pm

panku wrote:The only reason Crane Hasn't won 10+ Kotei this season is because Breeder exists.
That's probably true, but so is the reverse. Citing another clan which is also winning more than it probably should isn't really a counter-example. (If I'm counting right, Spider and Crane combined have won 50% of all Kotei this season.)

I think the main reason Breeder stands out as the one people complain about is the fact that it's the most dominant single deck. (The crane wins have been split between honor rockets and dishonor switch decks, while every Spider win has been breeder) The style of loss is also causing some of the complaints too. A loss to Crane usually involves you taking some of his provinces but not quite killing him before he crosses/dishonors you, while a loss to breeder usually involves a completely impenetrable wall of 30+ zombie tokens which allow the Spider player to attack with an army which is too big to be defeated, while leaving home a defensive army which is too big to be defeated, all while creating extra zombies as you kill his people off.
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Pruto on Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:49 pm

panku wrote:I feel no sympathy for the people losing to Breeder. The meta is out there and people choose to ignore it. A big part of being successful in any ccg is being able to read the environment and adapting to it.

I like how someone commenting in the Paris Kotei thread said something to the effect of: well i guess people should start running census and crossing... wait, wait. people don't run those cards to begin with in Europe?


My problem with the breeder thing is that there is too much luck involved. Good players loosing to Meta or getting bad matchups, whether that is breeder or anyone else. Why should the game hinge on a single event or end up on the wrong side of rock paper scissors? isn't that on the level of the stupid days (iris festival) that l5r is trying to avoid?
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Sleep on Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:36 pm

I do agree that under able hands, breeder can be very scary. It's bar-none the most consistent deck in the environment, which makes it very competitive. Players don't like playing a deck that sometimes loses the game due to bad luck. Breeder has the lowest probability of this in the format currently, IMHO.

The reason why some people consider it a Negative Play Experience is just that, it's consistency. The breeder deck doesn't have to do anything fancy to win. The breeder deck doesn't have to overcome your play decisions. The breeder deck just plays how it plays 99% of the time, getting zombies on the table. Instead, breeder is the one matchup where the game is almost entirely won or lost by the opposing player. Either they have the meta or they don't. Either they make the right decisions or don't. Either they draw into the right combination or cards or they don't.

No other matchup has this problem. In normal matchups, sometimes you can win just by "playing correctly" and the other player has a mistake, or bad luck, a bad draw, etc. There's more room for error, and the game isn't completely decided if you don't see the exact cards you wanted. For example, against honor... sometimes you don't see any of your honor events, but the opponent draws into all 3 subversives that clog up their hand. You end up barely winning but you win. Not because you outplayed them, or you had the meta. But because they got a bad draw for the game. Against breeder, this is (Very Rarely) a situation that comes up. In all my playtesting, I don't think I've ever beaten breeder because of a mistake that the breeder deck made. Now, being friends with Rich, I have heard of games he has lost due to bad draws, so breeder isn't COMPLETELY immune to it, but it is by far the most consistent.

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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  panku on Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:46 pm

Let me point out that i do believe that Breeder is powerful, if not overpowered. These things are bound to happen and you either roll with the punches or you get knocked out.

Either way i feel that a lot of players are putting in very little, to no effort to deal with the deck, then complaining about how it needs to be nerfed. The tools are out there and if enough people start using them it will have a large impact on breeders ability to win so consistently.

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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Pruto on Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:55 pm

I'm going to disagree with you Corey, i'd think Breeder is more luck based than any other tier 1 deck. let me explain

no other deck type gets destroyed by two cards the way breeder does (honor can survive honor meta events, honor can survive a pd even). Having those events pop at the right time during a military match up, when the breeder player mills his deck for forewarning to no avail. IF that isn't luck based, and completely independent of play skill, i don't know what is.

breeder has a 5%? chance to beat a good dishonor deck.

yes, breeder is very consistent, can survive bad draws/early game BUT those two above factors (the events and the one really bad matchup) makes luck play a stupid role.

case study #1: first breeder kotei winner, goes 4-3 (or was it 3-4) the first weekend, wins kotei second weekend with no playstyle/deck changes. Played no meta or anti meta cards (no forewarnings). His top 8 opponent flipped both events first turn. So was he drunk the first weekend? or did the stars align the second weekend? or a combo of both

case study #2: Rich avoiding both crane dishonor decks in top 8. Rich is a great player, but i wouldn't bet on him winning against one of those decks (especially in a best 2 of 3)
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  panku on Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:02 pm

I would have lost against dishonor for sure. I was however expecting little to no dishonor so i ran 0 meta against it. How many dishonor decks ended up showing up to Sarasota? 4 i believe. So it was the right call.

Either way, if i do take Breeder to SC, it will be a different version. This time around i will be running dishonor meta and speeding up the deck as i'm anticipating lots of control. An early Oyo Seido is all the deck really needs to beat dishonor.

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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Moto Damasko on Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:14 pm

panku wrote:I would have lost against dishonor for sure. I was however expecting little to no dishonor so i ran 0 meta against it. How many dishonor decks ended up showing up to Sarasota? 4 i believe. So it was the right call.

Either way, if i do take Breeder to SC, it will be a different version. This time around i will be running dishonor meta and speeding up the deck as i'm anticipating lots of control. An early Oyo Seido is all the deck really needs to beat dishonor.

Question, if TC hadn't of lost to the honor player, would you have lost to TC?
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Justin on Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:17 pm

Pruto wrote:no other deck type gets destroyed by two cards the way breeder does (honor can survive honor meta events, honor can survive a pd even). Having those events pop at the right time during a military match up, when the breeder player mills his deck for forewarning to no avail. IF that isn't luck based, and completely independent of play skill, i don't know what is.
(Well, to be fair, I should note that if you're playing something like COT military or Mantis scouts, you get royally kicked in the teeth by the same meta.)

The probability of things flopping goes both ways. All you can do is put in your meta and counter-meta into the deck and hope for the best. I know I've seen Census flop uselessly on the first turn more than enough times.

The issues which make it really hard on people playing against breeder are:

1. The events do the heavy lifting against breeder, and they can only hit in a narrow window and still be worthwhile. And that narrow window coincides with the end-game, after the Breeder player has had extra time to find one of 3 copies of Forewarning. Turn the tide can be drawn whenever and still be useful, but is also more limited in what decks it can appear in. And again, Consuming the Flesh just hoses it. These aren't bizarre, abnormal cards for a breeder deck, they're just about staples.

2. The rest of the meta is really not that amazing. Really, Claw and Shell and Burn the Village just kill 2 zombies... Definitely better than most actions are against zombies, but it's still just killing two zombies. They might even come back immediately if Udo is out. My Life is Yours does the same kind of thing. JEV certainly helps, but you've got to be close for it to matter, and it's not like the breeder deck isn't killing your guys too.

3. Breeder can (and will) run counter-meta. All the big nasty meta stuff can be mostly solved by Forewarning, and Consuming the Flesh. Unclean Sacrifice undoes the 2-for-1 actions. Expendable gets you stuff for your bowed guys and triggers your Udos. And there's no counter-counter meta for this... The breeder deck pretty much has the last say on preparedness and meta.
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  valentine on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:07 pm

Breeder is one of the reasons I cannot feel good about playing mantis this season. It is a matchup that is like running backwards up a snow-covered hill. The problem (if one exists) is that it does not run on the same resources that any other dynasty deck relies on. After a few initial flips you no longer have to depend on your deck to deliver people to you, you can order them in from a variety of places. Often the price for them is free, or even gains you something, and free recursive anything is seldom the most healthy thing for a card game. To me breeder's biggest crime is that it hinders the development of other spider decks. Reese just posted his monks, but it will largely be ignored due to the inherent strengths of breeder. I've been messing with paragons for the better part (if not all) of celestial, but I cannot take it out of hiding because it loses to breeder (though it can destroy dishonor).

Another problem, as others have pointed out, is that the meta doesn't really work. Lord knows claw and shell is ineffective (it is primarily lion meta), the events can be canceled (I know thats my case xD), and JeV and My Life is Yours don't really cut it (I assure you). Even if Fury was unMRPed I don't think it would really be an answer.

Now I need to find something to play this weekend. I hate my decks. What was the question again Razz


Last edited by valentine on Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:24 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling like a drunken monkey)
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Kakita Hideo on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:13 pm

One could also argue that Crane is doing well because breeder is around.....One of the issues with breeder is that the right meta package which can be as little as 2 events 3 claw and shell 2 x JEV become an issue because of the many different tier 1 decks out there right now. Crane Honor, Crane Dishonor, Crab (3-4 kotei's now), and breeder all required different packages. Before I decided on playing Crane in Atlanta I was running a Mantis deck that only ran breeder meta because yes you can sneak wins against the others without meta. Is Breeder strong? Yes. Is it beatable? Absolutely but if complaining online doesn't resolve the issue. If everyone starts packing Crossing, Census, and 3 x Claw and Shell or plays dishonor you will see breeders numbers dwindle because they can beat the full suite a few times but for a whole tournament? Kind of rough Neutral
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Kakita Hideo on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:17 pm

valentine wrote:
Now I need to find something to play this weekend. I hate my decks. What was the question again Razz

You could play Crane Slander...... I might be willing to pay for your beverages in SC if you do.....
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  panku on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:20 pm

I would like to point out that Reese went 7-0 with monks, but he conceded every game, so he was playing through the losers bracket. A player of his calibre could play any deck to 7-0 in those circumstances.

I would love to play a Spider deck that is not Breeder, but they all have serious issues with control decks.

I'm definitely looking forward to the new arc, though today's spiders previews leave me completely bewildered and somewhat disappointed.

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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Kakita Hideo on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:22 pm

I kind of like the guy who's profile pic your using....he seems playable. Anybody know when Crane previews go up?
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  valentine on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:25 pm

Crane it thursday,I believe. Dishonor certainly is a possability if I can wrestle the cards away from others that I need before then (lost my embassy <_<). If not I have to play big sweaty dudes 🇳🇴
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Kakita Hideo on Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:27 pm

valentine wrote:Crane it thursday,I believe. Dishonor certainly is a possability if I can wrestle the cards away from others that I need before then (lost my embassy <_<). If not I have to play big sweaty dudes 🇳🇴

Text me what you need and I'll mail them to you if you'll play Crane.
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Pruto on Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:46 am

Kakita Hideo wrote: If everyone starts packing Crossing, Census, and 3 x Claw and Shell or plays dishonor you will see breeders numbers dwindle because they can beat the full suite a few times but for a whole tournament? Kind of rough Neutral

not every one can pack crossing & census, those decks that can have an inherent disadvantage against breeder to begin with (big unit, slow 3rd turn attack). but you're right, it will have to come to that or everyone going dishonor, but then crane will win! we don't want that do we?
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Kakita Hideo on Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:26 am

Pruto wrote: we don't want that do we?

Sometimes you choose the lesser of two evils.....zombies and blood magic or structured society and safety?



Thanks Corey!!!
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Moto Damasko on Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:30 am

Can we choose beer and Dancing Banana's? Either way I accept, like pruto, that its a crap shoot who you play and what makes it to the top. Best you can do is be consistent and meta, but if you play 4x breeder or dishonor or honor rocket (top decks) all day, then tough luck.

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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

Post  Velo75 on Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:08 pm

Breeder = Central Castle pre-errata

As a half-decent Lion player I am 50-50 with the meta, but most other decktypes cannot make the same claim. The fact of the matter is that it stifles variety in deck design both in-clan and in other clans, which sucks for the game in general.

Luckily for all of our sanity it will likely be gone or at least severely weakened for Emperor Edition, so we can all move on to playing meta against dishonor instead like we're supposed to.
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Re: "Nerf Breeder Now" < I lulz'd

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